there are still two more presidential debates. and mr. obama has the facts on his side to expose the hollowness of his opponent, but first he has to decide to use them aggressively. i think a lot of people felt that way. >> jon meacham, you'd have to go back to the 2004 bush debate. first bush debate to find a clear winner like we had last night. when you have even liberal publications, liberal editorial pages saying that barack obama didn't show up, and mitt romney won it going away. >> i think that's right. and i think -- it's interesting that incumbent presidents, as we've been talking about, you know, are not accustomed to this forum. it's been a long time since he's been challenged like that. i remember president bush, george w. bush, was quoted -- used to be quoted as saying, you know, people will be out in the oval office waiting room and they'll say i'm going to go in and tell the president, great texas phrase, what all, and they get in and they say oh, what a lovely tie, mr. president. and i think that's a big part of this. and i